vj theory home page

let's chat
About realtime interaction

technology
federico bonelli

4th April (Wednesday) 2007
7PM to 8PM (London)

[2007-04-04 17:58:58] fredd: hallo
[2007-04-04 17:59:04] bram: hello
[2007-04-04 17:59:29] bram: let's chat :-)
[2007-04-04 17:59:29] haye: hi!
[2007-04-04 17:59:33] fredd: i have been first :)
[2007-04-04 18:00:08] Ana: Hello everyone and welcome to the second chat f this event
[2007-04-04 18:00:36] fredd: hello... were do we want to start? Someone has a fire to light?
[2007-04-04 18:00:41] Ana: Frederico, would you like to introduce yourself?
[2007-04-04 18:00:47] fredd: sure
[2007-04-04 18:01:18] fredd: My nickname fredd has been chosen in early '90es to pass unnoticed in chat lines...
[2007-04-04 18:01:46] fredd: I am an independent researcher. I work in amsterdam, mainly with projects connected to arts
[2007-04-04 18:02:25] fredd: my studies were mainly in philosophy of science
[2007-04-04 18:03:04] fredd: and moreover, i am a pasionate of italian futurism
[2007-04-04 18:03:10] fredd: that's about it
[2007-04-04 18:03:24] bram: why passionate with futurism?
[2007-04-04 18:03:34] bram: any links with vj - live av?
[2007-04-04 18:03:44] fredd: well
[2007-04-04 18:04:08] fredd: futurism rained on me while i was searching for my own style
[2007-04-04 18:04:24] fredd: i have been vj a bit, in 2000-2003
[2007-04-04 18:04:41] bram: i meant a link between vjing and futurism
[2007-04-04 18:04:50] fredd: :)
[2007-04-04 18:05:25] haye: vjing is futurism. period. :D
[2007-04-04 18:05:27] fredd: there are many: if you read the first manifest of futurist painting for example, and offcourse in the manifest of cinema
[2007-04-04 18:05:41] brendan: does that relate to your live cinema project?
[2007-04-04 18:06:39] fredd: a thing that guides me in my exporations is to start from the situation i want to influence
[2007-04-04 18:07:53] fredd: hops
[2007-04-04 18:07:57] bram: circumstances in general, or a specific situation, a user/spectator experience or society?
[2007-04-04 18:07:59] fredd: i fell :)
[2007-04-04 18:08:13] fredd: sorry i guess i have missed some questions
[2007-04-04 18:08:22] fredd: my browser crashed
[18:08:52] bram: there is a history button on top
[18:08:54] brendan: there is big academic baggage just with the mention of futurism
[18:09:19] fredd: is a difficult thing to express...
[18:09:56] fredd: hei... i feel surrounded :)
[18:10:05] fredd: let's start from the start...
[18:10:16] bram: :-)
[18:10:21] fredd: I wish i was a poet and not a philosopher
[18:10:29] Ana: how does your work, futurism (perhaps) and realtime performance come together?
[18:10:37] fredd: as a poet i would like to sing about my age
[18:10:39] brendan: It's always a good idea to have a shot at academic baggage :wink:
[18:11:07] fredd: to sing as a poet you need words
[2007-04-04 18:12:23] fredd: now
[2007-04-04 18:12:42] fredd: words have to be found in a way that they talk to people as things do
[2007-04-04 18:12:58] fredd: and not as books
[2007-04-04 18:13:33] fredd: when i realized this i thought that things in our civilisations include a lot of crappy tv programs
[2007-04-04 18:13:38] fredd: so to say
[2007-04-04 18:13:39] fredd: media
[2007-04-04 18:13:53] fredd: media and rithm
[2007-04-04 18:14:04] fredd: italian is a very rithmic language
[2007-04-04 18:14:15] fredd: and we always talk in between words
[2007-04-04 18:14:44] fredd: with strong images and rithm i could talk in a way that was new to me and totally expressive
[2007-04-04 18:15:01] fredd: let's say, the style of my age (in my point of view)
[2007-04-04 18:15:17] fredd: then i found Marinetti, writing to Ezra Pound
[2007-04-04 18:15:23] fredd: in 1929
[18:15:37] fredd: and saw that his style was exactly what i had found
[18:16:24] fredd: now, if you bring all this delirium to analysis of visual/auditive/performative situationsyou have my own story with futurism
[18:17:15] fredd: after i discovered that most of our most "cutting edge" practices were connected with ideas from avantgarde
[18:17:24] fredd: with technology they did not have
[18:17:36] fredd: now i am getting to pass also that phase
[18:18:03] fredd: and i think we are many, that are stepping out into something different, yet very barbaric
[18:18:11] fredd: have i lost you all?
[18:18:31] Ana: we are reading you
[18:18:45] brendan: still hanging in there
[18:18:48] fredd: ah :)
[18:18:59] Jem: still here
[18:19:10] fredd: gosh what a endurance
[18:19:14] fredd: so
[18:19:31] fredd: what has all this to say to interactive media :)
[18:19:34] brendan: Its an (en)durational performance
[18:19:44] fredd: ahhaha
[18:20:16] Ana: how does technoly comes to make a change.or perhaps to provide the way to develop ideas
[18:20:29] fredd: have you read for example the technical manifesto of literature?
[18:20:39] bram: no
[18:20:48] Ana: I ment technology (forgive my lazy keyboard)
[18:21:32] brendan: Nope, in what way do you mean 'barbaric'?
[18:22:16] fredd: welli was part of a time in wich in academy was still an issue to talk about to relate to the "two cultures"
[18:22:37] fredd: and i made the mistake to shift my studies towards science
[18:22:53] Jem: art and technology you mean?
[18:23:10] fredd: instead neither of the cultures of the 20th centuries made the the step to renovate for real
[18:23:15] fredd: a new culture emerged
[18:23:21] fredd: ignoring what was before
[18:23:29] fredd: emerged hacking stuff
[18:23:43] fredd: hacking the infoglut to produce vj shows for ex
[18:23:52] fredd: and moved a lot of air
[18:24:10] fredd: these barbarians ignored one generation the generation before
[18:24:31] fredd: i saw guys losing 2 years of work to make videofeedback digitally
[18:24:43] fredd: ignoring the 70es experimental scene
[18:25:02] fredd: i have shown dziga vertov to vj's in tears
[18:25:18] fredd: and the barbarians don't feel that that is past

[18:17:24] fredd: with technology they did not have
[18:17:36] fredd: now i am getting to pass also that phase
[18:18:03] fredd: and i think we are many, that are stepping out into something different, yet very barbaric
[18:18:11] fredd: have i lost you all?
[18:18:31] Ana: we are reading you
[18:18:45] brendan: still hanging in there
[18:18:48] fredd: ah :)
[18:18:59] Jem: still here
[18:19:10] fredd: gosh what a endurance
[18:19:14] fredd: so
[18:19:31] fredd: what has all this to say to interactive media :)
[18:19:34] brendan: Its an (en)durational performance
[18:19:44] fredd: ahhaha
[18:20:16] Ana: how does technoly comes to make a change.or perhaps to provide the way to develop ideas
[18:20:29] fredd: have you read for example the technical manifesto of literature?
[18:20:39] bram: no
[18:20:48] Ana: I ment technology (forgive my lazy keyboard)
[18:21:32] brendan: Nope, in what way do you mean 'barbaric'?
[18:22:16] fredd: welli was part of a time in wich in academy was still an issue to talk about to relate to the "two cultures"
[18:22:37] fredd: and i made the mistake to shift my studies towards science
[18:22:53] Jem: art and technology you mean?
[18:23:10] fredd: instead neither of the cultures of the 20th centuries made the the step to renovate for real
[18:23:15] fredd: a new culture emerged
[18:23:21] fredd: ignoring what was before
[18:23:29] fredd: emerged hacking stuff
[18:23:43] fredd: hacking the infoglut to produce vj shows for ex
[18:23:52] fredd: and moved a lot of air
[18:24:10] fredd: these barbarians ignored one generation the generation before
[18:24:31] fredd: i saw guys losing 2 years of work to make videofeedback digitally
[18:24:43] fredd: ignoring the 70es experimental scene
[18:25:02] fredd: i have shown dziga vertov to vj's in tears
[18:25:18] fredd: and the barbarians don't feel that that is past
[18:25:37] fredd: more to be part of the same future of vertov or Boccioni
[18:25:51] fredd: brothers of the same barbarians
[18:26:01] fredd: a very futurist thing to realize
[18:26:12] fredd: futurism does not need the idea of progress
[18:26:43] fredd: you can find some manifestos on the web in english here http://www.unknown.nu/futurism/
[18:26:47] fredd: for example
[18:27:02] fredd: bruno Corra in 1912
[18:27:03] Jem: Have you read the Hackers Manifesto by Ward McKenzie?
[18:27:21] fredd: wants to use cinema to make paintings of light
[18:27:22] Jem: Do you think that relates to it at all?
[18:27:27] fredd: not this one
[18:27:44] fredd: i cnnot reacall there are many
[18:27:53] fredd: what does it say
[18:28:13] Jem: It talks about the hacker culture in general
[18:28:32] fredd: i am quite deep into hacking culture
[18:28:37] fredd: in both senses :)
[18:29:06] Jem: People taking given processes and using them for their own ends
[18:29:12] fredd: i am not a good hacker myself, but i have been with a computer in my hands and breacking toys since 13
[18:29:32] fredd: toysbreacking since earlier :)
[18:29:46] bram: what do you mean with "futurism does not need the idea of progress"
[18:29:54] fredd: i share the idea that knowledge means the ability to make things, twist things
[18:30:49] fredd: i mean bram that futurism does not come out of rational progressism like Compte would have said
[18:30:59] fredd: but from irrationalism
[18:31:08] bram: ok
[18:31:24] fredd: futurism is a son of vulcanoes and heartquakes...
[18:31:39] fredd: are you aquainted with Hakim Bey?
[18:31:57] brendan: yes
[18:32:04] fredd: it was considered a guru in the '90es
[18:32:08] brendan: not personally
[18:32:19] fredd: heheheh me neither
[18:32:22] bram: heard of
[18:32:36] fredd: but i mean, we learned situationism through poetic terrorism

[2007-04-04 18:32:50] fredd: and plagiarism
[2007-04-04 18:33:13] fredd: gosh is hard to be rational in a irc chat
[2007-04-04 18:33:31] Jem: You're doing well. Is that what you are doing with Cinema Solubile
[2007-04-04 18:33:34] fredd: is much to good a medium to be poetic
[2007-04-04 18:33:37] Jem: ?
[2007-04-04 18:34:00] Jem: poetic terrorism?
[2007-04-04 18:34:08] fredd: well cinema solubile is a trick to push people out of their usual way to make/see/do cinema
[2007-04-04 18:34:32] fredd: it destroys the way we have to see it
[2007-04-04 18:34:33] brendan: I thought it was harder to be irratonal in irc the thing has prefered behaviours
[2007-04-04 18:34:52] Jem: It certainly turns things on their heads
[2007-04-04 18:34:53] bram: can you describe what happens, what does cinema solubile do?
[2007-04-04 18:35:04] fredd: a cinema becomes a teather, a maker comes on stage not for a prize but to destroy it's creation... all is played on the memory
[2007-04-04 18:35:40] fredd: well i have much too said about cs in your previous interviews
[2007-04-04 18:35:49] fredd: there will be a new season
[2007-04-04 18:36:01] fredd: we will make a big event in Rome in October
[2007-04-04 18:36:19] fredd: and to prepare it i am organizing a cs in amsterdam and one in spoleto
[2007-04-04 18:36:25] fredd: what about england?
[2007-04-04 18:36:32] fredd: :)
[2007-04-04 18:36:34] Jem: How many people actually get to see the performance?
[2007-04-04 18:36:56] fredd: we had a teather full in ams
[2007-04-04 18:36:59] fredd: about 100
[2007-04-04 18:37:18] fredd: but when you put 11 persons together is easy to fill a teather
[2007-04-04 18:37:28] fredd: and there are many friends of the makers
[2007-04-04 18:37:37] fredd: that makes the atmosphere very nice
[2007-04-04 18:37:38] Jem: I think its very similar idea of propogation as to the 60's happenings?
[2007-04-04 18:37:48] fredd: because they tend to participate, and groups melt
[2007-04-04 18:37:58] fredd: in a sense yes
[2007-04-04 18:38:09] fredd: but happenings were very concerned with art
[2007-04-04 18:38:19] fredd: we are very concerned with it's negation
[2007-04-04 18:38:20] Ana: Is CS about using in different ways film techniques? could you develop on that?
[2007-04-04 18:38:33] fredd: yes

[18:34:00] Jem: poetic terrorism?
[18:34:08] fredd: well cinema solubile is a trick to push people out of their usual way to make/see/do cinema
[18:34:32] fredd: it destroys the way we have to see it
[18:34:33] brendan: I thought it was harder to be irratonal in irc the thing has prefered behaviours
[18:34:52] Jem: It certainly turns things on their heads
[18:34:53] bram: can you describe what happens, what does cinema solubile do?
[18:35:04] fredd: a cinema becomes a teather, a maker comes on stage not for a prize but to destroy it's creation... all is played on the memory
[18:35:40] fredd: well i have much too said about cs in your previous interviews
[18:35:49] fredd: there will be a new season
[18:36:01] fredd: we will make a big event in Rome in October
[18:36:19] fredd: and to prepare it i am organizing a cs in amsterdam and one in spoleto
[18:36:25] fredd: what about england?
[18:36:32] fredd: :)
[18:36:34] Jem: How many people actually get to see the performance?
[18:36:56] fredd: we had a teather full in ams
[18:36:59] fredd: about 100
[18:37:18] fredd: but when you put 11 persons together is easy to fill a teather
[18:37:28] fredd: and there are many friends of the makers
[18:37:37] fredd: that makes the atmosphere very nice
[18:37:38] Jem: I think its very similar idea of propogation as to the 60's happenings?
[18:37:48] fredd: because they tend to participate, and groups melt
[18:37:58] fredd: in a sense yes
[18:38:09] fredd: but happenings were very concerned with art
[18:38:19] fredd: we are very concerned with it's negation
[18:38:20] Ana: Is CS about using in different ways film techniques? could you develop on that?
[18:38:33] fredd: yes
[18:38:58] fredd: the idea is that cinema is something that is watched by a lot of people in a dark room
[18:39:17] bram: go on
[18:39:18] fredd: we had people mixing their film live with software done by themselve
[18:39:29] fredd: someone using cctv from the backstage
[18:39:47] fredd: a guy asked me to be his actor and shot and shown my execution
[18:39:55] fredd: live in front of the audience
[18:40:06] fredd: some people makes re use of footage
[18:40:10] fredd: or found footage
[18:40:23] fredd: i have made films with my photocamera
[18:40:36] fredd: someone used step animation
[18:40:52] fredd: there is more inventive than genre
[18:40:57] Jem: I know it not the idea but does any of the films seep outside of the performance even though you destroy it?
[18:41:04] fredd: because is impossible to make a real film in 23 hours
[18:41:09] fredd: even a short one
[18:41:21] fredd: well
[18:41:22] fredd: yes
[18:41:34] fredd: people cheat, there have been bootlegs
[18:41:51] Jem: on the net at all?
[18:41:56] fredd: i am very happy of itbecause insead of an original you have a myth
[18:42:07] fredd: i am not sure
[18:42:20] fredd: but one short solubile was on a festival in australia
[18:42:46] fredd: and i have written to tell them that it was impossible, because that film was destroyed and i could prove it
[18:42:51] fredd: (i had the pieces)
[18:42:58] fredd: but they have not answered
[18:43:01] fredd: :(
[18:43:25] brendan: Jem, check out the interview on vj theory
[18:43:45] fredd: yeah, i say a ot about cs there
[18:43:50] Jem: Ok sure
[18:43:59] fredd: but do you have any question about tech?
[18:44:10] fredd: i mean wher is technology going?
[18:45:01] fredd: i think that tech of interaction and manipulation of media is going out of the computer
[18:45:09] brendan: Hi fredd, you touched on the relation between words and things earlier and spaces between words
[18:45:10] fredd: is spreading in the meatspace
[18:45:15] Jem: Well I'm interested in this apparent destruction of digital artifacts
[18:45:39] brendan: you mentioned the arduino project in a mail, does this relate in any way?
[18:45:41] fredd: well the spirit of art, Jem, is the artifact
[18:45:50] fredd: well that is an example
[18:46:02] fredd: there are great things happening
[18:46:07] fredd: for example the reactable
[18:46:15] fredd: is an incredible project

[18:46:38] fredd: http://mtg.upf.edu/reactable/
[18:47:14] fredd: most of media artist i know are now busy learning electronics or light design
[18:47:24] Jesse SCott: there is a great video response to reactable demo #2 on youtube. an aside, but funny & poignant.
[18:47:33] fredd: the fact is that the total teather is an attractive things even on a smaller scale
[18:47:54] fredd: can you post the url ?
[18:48:33] brendan: Is that total theater? Sorry
[18:48:56] Jesse SCott: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kw0sP7WKHXY
[18:48:57] fredd: no, i think total teather is the next thing
[18:49:08] fredd: so we close the circle
[18:49:27] fredd: HAHAHAHAHAHA
[18:49:39] fredd: this is fully spirit of cinema solubile
[18:49:43] fredd: I LOVE IT
[18:50:08] Jesse SCott: it says a lot actually, doesnt it.
[18:50:19] fredd: sure
[18:50:23] Jem: The immortality of the digital is a characteristic of our new technology is it not?
[18:50:47] fredd: these two kids are probably the next wave of poetical terrorists
[18:51:01] fredd: immortality?
[18:51:15] fredd: have you tried to read back your zip disks
[18:51:22] fredd: or a 10 years old cd
[18:51:26] fredd: :)
[18:51:40] Jem: what about the binary code though?
[18:51:42] fredd: we are producing highly disposable stuff
[18:51:54] fredd: that is trivial :)
[18:52:08] fredd: digital is simple
[18:52:23] fredd: and that is why is so complex

[18:52:29] fredd: gosh i love paradoxes
[18:52:33] fredd: sorry
[18:52:45] fredd: you can throw me that piece of burned wood
[18:52:46] Jesse SCott: its only immortaal for as long as we maintain a structure to keep it plugged in...
[18:53:11] fredd: we have a similar problem with human genes
[18:53:15] Jem: that true
[18:53:20] fredd: they have sense until they are in a cell
[18:53:36] fredd: you should check this other example out
[18:54:00] fredd: http://www.dyne.org/museum/
[18:54:28] fredd: this is instead something that comes from down and that is not barbaric
[18:54:42] fredd: or maybe have passed the state of barbarism already
[18:54:54] fredd: and is now moving towards the next step
[18:55:21] bram: are digital media supporting a better lifetime for the ideas they are carrying?
[18:55:24] fredd: the undercover guild of cathedral makers in a networked world
[18:55:51] fredd: i think the only support for ideas that have duration is social
[18:56:26] fredd: digital media has a meaning in acommunity of people that work with it towards some expressions that mean for them
[18:56:31] fredd: towards a poetry
[18:56:42] fredd: that they can understaind
[18:57:20] fredd: is it not a weird thing that this hack clud is called "poetry" and is located under a vulcano?
[18:57:42] Jesse SCott: ??
[18:57:57] fredd: sorry a typo
[18:58:05] fredd: hacklab
[18:58:13] fredd: a typo and a lapsus
[18:58:16] fredd: :)
[18:58:27] Ana: This session is getting close to an end, since is almost 8 (our time in UK)
[18:58:34] fredd: yes
[18:58:37] Jesse SCott: ...technology...
[18:58:45] Jesse SCott: Thanks Again ANA et al...
[18:58:47] fredd: i am sorry i fear it was slightly confused
[18:59:00] Jesse SCott: so was last night.
[18:59:03] fredd: i am not a fast typer
[18:59:20] Jem: It was very interesting thankes very much, Fredd
[2007-04-04 18:59:32] fredd: we talked more poetry than tech :)
[2007-04-04 18:59:39] fredd: thank you all!
[2007-04-04 18:59:47] Jem: I have to go - Take care
[2007-04-04 18:59:48] masha ioveva: futurism, poetry and technology always go hand in hand
[2007-04-04 18:59:53] masha ioveva: thanks
[2007-04-04 18:59:55] bram: thank you
[2007-04-04 19:00:01] Ana: thank you all once agai for joiningus on the chat
[2007-04-04 19:00:02] brendan: Confussion seems pretty well inevitable
[2007-04-04 19:00:10] Jesse SCott: what did Debord say: revolution in the service of poetry, not poetry in the service of revolution...
[2007-04-04 19:00:24] fredd: AHHAHAHA
[2007-04-04 19:00:29] fredd: the old Guy
[2007-04-04 19:00:37] Jesse SCott: see you all ta 2am PST!!
[2007-04-04 19:00:37] fredd: he liked borgogna very much
[2007-04-04 19:00:41] bram: he's right
[2007-04-04 19:00:44] fredd: yes...
[2007-04-04 19:00:51] brendan: Thanks everyone, thanks Fredd thanks Guy
[2007-04-04 19:00:52] fredd: ciao
[2007-04-04 19:01:10] bram: arreviderci
[2007-04-04 19:01:13] bram: or so
[2007-04-04 19:01:16] fredd: saluti a tutti
[2007-04-04 19:01:23] magda: thanks
[2007-04-04 19:02:22] brendan: Very different to the last one but i weirdly expect they all will be